Interview with Archbishop Ndingi Mwana a’Nzeki
September 13, 2004

By John L. Allen, Jr.
Nairobi, Kenya

NCR Rome Correspondent John L. Allen Jr. traveled to Africa in early September. While there, he interviewed Archbishop Ndingi Mwana a’Nzeki in Nairobi. Allen's report on his African trip can be found here: A journey to Africa: confronting AIDS, relations among religions, and the challenges of poverty .

NCR: What are the main challenges facing the church in Kenya?
Archbishop Ndingi Mwana a’Nzeki: I suppose like in other parts of Africa, ours is a young church. While we have completed 100 years since the first missionaries came out here, until the end of the Second Vatican Council, until the end of the 1970s, the church in this country was a priest church, where the priest was everything. He did everything. People were there, they listened to him, they followed him, but apart from saying their prayers they did nothing else. From the 1970s, however, especially with the Vatican Council, the situation changed, especially when we started pastoral councils. In other words, involvement of the lay people in the work and life of the church. In particular, instead of this idea of people travelling five or ten miles to church, they started building their own small centers [in the villages] where they meet every Sunday with or without a priest, and they conduct their services, their prayers, the readings, the catechism … someone explains it. Then they go home. When the priest is available, he comes and says Mass for them. That for me is the greatest development in the church, involving the lay people in the work and life of the church. So much so, that at the moment they demand that they be involved. When you involve them, you do less because they do more.

So it’s “win-win,” as we say.
Exactly. When they support you, they do a lot of work for you, but because you are guiding them you are also involved. For me, that is the greatest. So the challenge is to continue that. Then of course the local vocations, for the religious, the priests, and even the lay people. We have in Kenya a group that calls themselves Lay Apostles, people who offer to spend three, four, some years as a missionary within the country. They are totally committed to evangelization.

How do they evangelize?
Teaching the catechism, working in hospitals, or just in dealing with the people who are sick. In other words, doing the work that the priest did in the past, especially witnessing by living the faith as lay people. Some are married, some not married, but mostly not married. They’re very young, they spend three or four years and then come back. That for me is the greatest. Then of course you have the local vocations, many local vocations, and that has transformed the image of the church. In the past, it was seen as a foreign church depending on Rome, but now there’s more support of the church from the lay people than ever before.

It’s seen as a local church because the clergy are local?
Yes, and also because the people are involved.

You have a challenge that would be the envy of many bishops in Europe and North America, which is that your seminaries are too full.
Yes, we have many vocations. Seminaries built for 100 now have almost 200. I’m now 43 years ordained a priest. When I was ordained, it appeared like a strange thing, very strange. For an African not to have his own family, not married, there must be something wrong with him. Now, that image has gone, especially when they see us faithful to our vocation. As a matter of fact, even non-Catholics, if there was a great need … suppose there was an accident somewhere, or something that needed attention from somebody. If there was another kind of minister and a Catholic priest, they will go to the Catholic priest, immediately. Why? For me, it’s because they know that if he can help, he’ll do it, without hesitation. Then there’s the part played by our local sisters. People can approach our sisters very, very easily, and they’re available in nursery school, primary school, secondary schools, hospitals, social work. People know that. That has been a great development in our church, by the grace of God.

In terms of challenges, the so-called “sects,” small independent Protestant movements, are growing rapidly here. Why?
They come out forcefully, but they don’t seem to keep their stamina. They seem to burn out quickly. First of all, they’re a minority. Don’t let anybody deceive you that they’re a majority. They’re the minority. When they travel, they have a big group. Take Nairobi, for example. They will have a big meeting in the stadium, but people come from all over the whole town. Therefore they are not a majority. They do attract people, but at the same time people resent them sometimes, especially when they accuse other religions. People don’t like to hear a minister accusing another minister.

Do they attack the Catholic Church?
They can, but at the same time, can they show what they have done? We can show our schools, we can show our hospitals, we can show our work for the old people, for the children, for the dying, and now at the moment instructing the people with AIDS and so on. We can show that. They cannot do it. They can, as an exception, but as a church they cannot.

What is their attraction?
I suppose most of them take advantage of the fact that in the past we were seen as a European church. Now they cannot do that, you cannot say that. As a matter of fact, people say they are growing fast but I do not think so myself. I am not convinced, because if you count the people who come to church every Sunday, Catholics are by far the majority. Kenya is about 70 percent Christian, and Catholics as a denomination are the largest group in this country.

Whatever the number is, does the attraction have something to do with the style of worship?
There is too much dancing and emotion, usually without a moment of reflection. Whereas traditionally, like in the area where I was born, when we met for worship there was a moment for talking, for chatting, and then a moment came when no one talked until the leader does this business around the tree, pouring water or oil or what have you, and then he sits down and starts talking. Even the children would keep quiet at that moment. This is traditional African religion. In the Catholic Church, we have the moment when the priest prays, the consecration, when nobody else talks, so it’s familiar to Africans. What they [the sects] lack is the worship. They speak of worship, but what do they worship? We can point to our belief in the Eucharist. When it comes to communion, they invite everybody. We don’t, and we will not. As a matter of fact, like yesterday for example [at the celebration of the 100^th anniversary of the basilica]. We announced that the Eucharist is for Catholics who are prepared. Other people are welcome, but not for Eucharist. Even not all of the Catholics, but those who are prepared, who are ready, to receive the Eucharist.

In other words, you mean the praise of these groups lacks content?
Yes, it is exaggerated. The people go for a very short time, then they move on to another church, three or four, and then they go. We have Pentecostal churches in Nairobi, and when they begin, they’re packed with people. Fair enough, we don’t speak against them, but we definitely dispute the method of bringing people from outside. Say now this is the parish, their bus will collect people from different parts of the city to come to worship. We don’t do that. Our parishes are clearly marked. They compete to grab people. In fact, they’re providing transport for people to come to worship. On very exceptional occasions you can do it, for example the burial of the cardinal. People came from outside Nairobi and therefore they organized transportation, but not every Sunday.

What is the relationship between the church and Islam in Kenya?
So far we seem to work together. For example in the last elections, we formed what we called the “Ufungamano Group,” meaning “unity.” We worked together, Muslims, Protestants and Catholics, to provide civic education to prepare voters. We were present at every polling station in the country, regardless of whether it was a Muslim area or a Catholic area or what. After that, we continued to work together. As a matter of fact, we worked together until a debate arose over the new constitution. The Muslims wanted Islamic religious practices inserted into the constitution, and there we differed. They wanted their Islamic legal system, the shariah, their courts, to not only be recognized but financially supported. There we differed. What we wanted is a clause that would recognize all religions and their rules, for example canon law, provided that religious law does not work in conflict with the national constitution. That’s what we’re trying at the moment. They walked out of the meeting, but we are trying to get them to come back.

How are relationships at the grassroots?
Really, apart from areas where there is a heavy Muslim population, in Kenya we have no fight. You’ll have individual people with different views, now and then someone will go to an extreme, shouting against another religion or writing against it, but apart from that we seem to work together very well.

Some believe there is a distinctively Swahili form of Islam that is tolerant, open, non-violent. Would you agree?

Yes, along the coast. Those people you can talk to, you can argue with, no problem. It is those people who have been brought up with prejudiced minds to think that Islam is the only faith, and that anybody who is not Muslim is kaphir and there is no salvation for the kaphir, who are the problem. Those people are on the extremes. They say you can find some like this in Mumbasa, but there are not many.

So there is no push for Islamization in Kenya?
No, I would not say so.

I hear in Uganda, for example, that Muslims sometimes seek to marry Christian girls.
They say that, but in Kenya I’ve never heard of such a thing. In Uganda the Catholics are very strong, but then when Idi Amin came he gave a push to the Islamic faith. Naturally you would expect some people to do that.

Do Islamic schools try to convert children to Islam?
Where there are purely Islamic, Muslim schools, where the majority of children are Muslim, there will be a bit of that. They will be inclined to see the others as people who shouldn’t be there. Whereas we admit everyone, all of them. In Nairobi, if a Catholic school has five or more Muslim children, we give them a room where they can meet to pray. We allow them to wear headscarves. Why not? If it has a meaning for them, and it is not a hindrance to their education or their mixing with others, why not? I cannot understand why in France they’re against it, but that’s their business.

But fundamentally there is no serious Christian-Muslim conflict in Kenya?
I must say so, yes. None. You will have individual people who are prejudiced, but they are few and far between. There is no policy or general feeling saying, we are against these people, no.

What is the Catholic Church in Kenya doing to respond to the HIV/AIDS crisis?
First of all, the Catholic Church was the first organized group to speak on HIV/AIDS, to warn people against it, and to warn against the use of condoms, and to propose education for the people, as early as 1987. The first case, I’m told, was discovered in 1985. At that time, our document that we issued was totally ignored by the government and by the press. Now they are on their knees begging us to come, and we are doing it. We are the one obvious organization doing this, in hospices, home care, and so on. In instructions, social teaching … without boasting, we are the number one provider of care.

You mentioned the condoms question. Some say that the Catholic Church has stood in the way of solving the AIDS question because of its opposition to condoms. How do you see it?
For me, a condom is not the answer. In fact, in this country I would say without fear that the use of condoms has been the greatest means of increasing the cases of AIDS. Take our university students, students in schools of higher studies, where condoms are available upon demand. They have had the greatest number of deaths due to HIV/AIDS. The former vice-chancellor of Nairobi University said publicly that every week they bury somebody from the university, a teacher or a student or a university worker. Condoms are available on request, costing nothing. In this country, to provide a young person, a young Kenyan, with a condom is a license. It’s like saying, ‘my son or daughter, you are free.’ And they do it.

So abstinence is the only answer?
Absolutely. We had a meeting one time at the former president’s home, President Moi. It was sponsored by the United Nations. I was surprised. There were three signs, in big writing. The first said, “Abstinence, the only guarantee against HIV/AIDS.” Second, “It costs nothing.” Third, “It has no side effects.” That was by the United Nations.

Do you see any evidence this message is getting through?
Yes, yes. Practically every family has seen somebody dead or suffering, or attended a funeral. Fear, fear of death, makes them change. In most of the country, people get involved in HIV/AIDS when they drink … with a condom in their pocket.

Are young people changing their behavior?
Yes, there is a bit of that. There is a movement of young people, ‘True Love Waits,’ where they meet. Even the press will go and ask them, they will talk about it publicly. When they have a meeting, they speak openly, clearly. You know, when they speak, they can convince their peers on an equal level in their conversation and their thinking.

It is very hard to understand why anti-retroviral medications are still not available to so many Kenyans.
They should be able to make it available to the people, but they’re not doing it.

Who’s to blame? The government? The drug companies?
Drug companies are a little bit to blame, if we are not allowed to produce it, or if they do not make it available as much as we would want. There is a kind of corruption still in our countries, maybe some people are using it or selling it. It’s possible. It’s very frustrating, because they could prolong life. People should be allowed either to make it available for them to buy, or for them to produce. The moral principle is, in extreme necessities all things are shared. If I’m dying and there is medicine, it’s my right to get that medicine. That is not being followed. In Africa, with all due respect to our people, corruption is still there.

There has been some controversy in the local press over the Nyumbani Children of God Relief Institute, focusing on accusations of illicit research. Does it still have your confidence?
I think so far they are doing very well. As far as the controversy is concerned, what took place I cannot understand. If it took place, it was unfortunate. I spoke to the father. But I believe they have done very well. At least those children have some place where they can be taken care of, before they die. If it happened, having blood tests taken outside of the country without permission, it’s very unfortunate. It should not be allowed.

But we shouldn’t lose sight of the good work being done?
Absolutely. There is no question about that. They have done very well. There is another place, Cottolengo, run by an Irish and Italian missionary society. It’s not very far from Nyumbani. They’re doing the same work. They worked together at one time, and they disagreed on principles so they divided. For me, I am very happy that somebody is doing something.

So Nyumbani still has your support?
Absolutely, absolutely.

What are your perceptions of Opus Dei in Kenya?
For me, they are doing wonderful work. They definitely penetrate the society. In Africa, Kenya has the largest number of Opus Dei people, and they have done extremely well. One thing is that they are very faithful to the church, to the church’s teaching. They receive the sacraments and they organize seminars and workshops for young people, for married couples, for all kind of people. Priests, they invite us. They make you pay for it, but when you look at what they ask, it’s almost nothing. You go to their seminars and workshops, they do very well. I think at the moment they are running a wonderful school, Strathmore. They are now starting a university. Personally I support them, very much. When I came here, there was Strathmore and the Kianda College, not very far from here, and other things, all restricted to one side. So when I came I told them, look, you people need to go to the Eastlands where the majority of Kenyans are living. I don’t want a church, don’t put up a church, put up a center. They did. I haven’t been able to visit it, but I want to. I’m telling you, whoever is running that place keeps [the people] occupied all the time. All the time, because there are so many people … women who don’t go to work, people who are off duty, children after school and on weekends. They are kept occupied all the time instructing them, and they don’t discriminate. If they are Protestant, if they are Muslim, whatever. I support them.

You know that Opus Dei is a controversial group. Some people complain of an obsession with secrecy, others power, and so on. Have you had any of these concerns in your dealings with them?
No, they have been very, very straight with me. Anytime their priests come here, they present them to me and I talk to them. They tell me what the priest is going to do. We have a school called Nairobi school, another Leanana School. I have no chaplain for those schools, and they are doing it, without coming to ask me for anything expect moral support. Maybe if they’re building a church, they will ask me to support the application for the church, that’s it. They say that Opus Dei is for the rich, but Kimlea is not for the rich people. Absolutely. Most of these are jealousies among other people, especially the missionaries. I’m sorry to say it, but it’s just because they don’t agree with them, they do that. Opus Dei organizes seminars and workshops and so many people attend. They don’t interfere or tell anyone what to do. When that university started, Strathmore University, oh I tell you. They were very honest. So, I don’t agree with those who criticize them. I don’t see them pushing at all, pushing for power. One of them is now a bishop, but he was appointed on his own merits. As a matter of fact, they didn’t even know. They were informed. When a decision was made to consider him, then they were asked in very strict confidence. When the decision was made that he was going to be appointed, then they were told. They were not asked. They were actually disappointed! The regional vicar told me, now we are missing a priest. I said, your only sin in that appointment is, you prepared him well. He’s doing very, very well.

You mentioned that some of the criticism comes from some of the missionary communities. I understand that when Strathmore was founded, there was criticism from some of the Holy Ghost Fathers.
Yes. I was in charge of the schools at that time. In this country, I was the education secretary for the country. The fact that they were near St. Mary’s, which is a wonderful school, was seen as, ‘Are they coming in opposition?’ It was not competition. As a matter of fact, they came to Kenya by coincidence. They started out in Tanzania, then Kenya and Uganda. Uganda had everything. Even now, they cannot tell you why they chose Kenya. Uganda had a university, they had school of higher studies beyond what we had in Kenya, and yet they came here. That they can’t explain, but I told them, ‘providence.’ But yes, there was that feeling among the missionaries, are they going to compete, are they going to come here to teach us how to teach? But that was normal. When you start something good, people will always come to criticize it. If you listen to criticism and give up, you are the loser.

Is the relationship between Opus Dei and the rest of the church better?
Oh, very much. As a matter of fact, you can never tell who is Opus Dei and who is not, except when they do their exercises. At the moment, it is like that. They don’t go out and advertise themselves. Now they speak more, but at the beginning there was a bit of, you don’t say who you are. There used to be this thing that if you give someone a lift and he says, let me off a kilometer away so I can say the rosary, then he was probably Opus Dei. These things were said because people did not understand. They also made some mistakes, they exaggerated  things. We had one professor in the seminary and he thought some of the books in the seminary were not right, so he wanted to have them burned. Maybe he was right, but is burning the answer? This was a priest of Opus Dei, and he eventually went back. I didn’t see this myself, but people say that. Even if that is true, you can say, maybe he was wrong. Maybe the book was bad on this or that page, so it should be removed … but I understand he would remove the books himself. Whether or not that is true, I cannot say. There will always be people who exaggerate.

The bottom line is that you are supportive of Opus Dei?
Absolutely.

Are there any areas you want to see them grow?
As it is today, I’d like to see more involvement where the community gathers. They have the professionals among them, the medical professionals and so on, they have a high school. But there’s also the middle and lower class people, and that’s where I would like to see them spread, like their center in the Eastlands. It’s in the lower part of the city, where the population of people is concentrated. There they invite the children, the parents. For me, I’d like to see more of that for the ordinary people.

You don’t mind seeing African vocations serving in Europe or the United States, but you would like to see more support for the African church from those places?
Today especially, I would like to see, for example, support to prepare our lay people to get even more involved. If we could have somebody working fulltime on the lay apostolate, a man and woman, working fulltime to set up seminars and workshops. Then our seminaries need help. They were built in the 1960s. St. Thomas opened in 1963, for 50 students, and now there are over 100. The building cannot be extended. Another was built for 100, it now has many more. Another one has 250. I also believe that if we do send missionaries, we must send the best. If you are giving a gift to anybody, you must give the best. We will never send people who are problems. Just like in the family, the mother and father takes great care of the one who goes astray, they do not send him off to bother other people. Those who like to cause trouble, it is my responsibility to keep here. If I send anybody outside, he must be the best.

What concrete ways could we help you?
At the moment for me, it’s our seminaries and houses of formation. We need money to improve the physical facilities, to expand them. For example, when they were built, they were built for students to share rooms. At that time, in the 1960s, that was okay, but today we don’t expect them to do that. You could divide a room into two. They can share the bathroom, that doesn’t matter, but not the room where they sleep. That would be number one. The other one would be, helping our catechists to support the work of evangelization. Selected people could educate, form, our people.

So since American Catholicism produces a large crop of very well-educated lay Catholics with advanced degrees in theology, you’d like some of them to come here.
Some could come over here, learn the Swahili language or the language of the people, and spend some time doing that. Some have come, actually, but very few. We need more. That would be for me an exchange of personnel that would help us a lot.

How well does the Vatican understand the pastoral situation in Kenya?
So far, I must say they have never contradicted us on anything we have done. One area where they can be very adamant is the appointment of bishops. I must say that in every case in this country, we have been consulted. Every bishop has been consulted. Maybe there have been one or two cases where not everyone has been consulted. Each one of us is consulted, privately or publicly. We also encourage everyone if they think someone can be a bishop, even without a specific vacancy, to propose it to the bishops’ conference, to explain it. They vote, we have the list of those who are passed, the names go to Rome. When there is appointment, the nuncio consults each one individually. Then when we send the name to him, when we are meeting he reads the names and sends the names to Rome. In Kenya, Rome has never appointed anybody not recommended by us, so far.

When you need a recognitio or help with a diplomatic problem?
We have a very good nuncio. In Kenya, we’ve really only had one nuncio who was a problem, very difficult. He was really difficult. He went to one diocese, and he disagreed with the bishop when they went outside the bishop’s house. Then they went to a small parish, where the bishop left the nuncio behind and went home, saying, ‘Lock the doors!’ Outside of that, we have had wonderful people. The nuncio plays a very important role. We invite him to come to visit our places, and to visit the people. When I opened a church in Nkuru, Cacciavillan was the nuncio here. We ate outside, and I have a picture of him sitting there with everyone else. From here he went to India, and then to the United States.

Many have talked about the idea of an African pope.  Is the African church ready to produce a pope?
It’s possible, if there is one who could be elected by the cardinals. Why not? Whoever thought there would be a pope from Poland?

What would that mean to the African church?
It would be a recognition of our growth, our development, and our responsibility in the church. If that’s in the Spirit’s design, it would be wonderful. It’s very hard to speculate. But we would need an African who would understand us.

What do you mean?
An African who would understand us and encourage us. For example, I would like to see more liturgical participation. I would like to see more translation of liturgical books in the language that our people understand. At the moment, it’s not bad. But you can have somebody come along who starts restricting things.

That’s what’s happening, isn’t it? The Holy See wants translations into fewer languages and closer to the Latin.
Closer to the original, but we’ve got to understand the language. You can bring it closer to the original, but the people aren’t so clear. We should be faithful to the original translation, but it has to be understood in this language. So we need someone not so strict, who understands us.

National Catholic Reporter, September 17, 2004